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#1 23-11-2008 22:01:00

khazagin
ChaOtributeur
Lieu: Poitiers
Date d'inscription: 22-12-2007
Messages: 646

Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

Salut!

En tant qu'archer, il m'arrive de trainer sur la toile a la recherche d'info et autres documentation sur mon arme fétiche, et il se trouve qu'en faisant quelques recherches sur ma future lubie en archerie, le tir instinctif, je suis tombé sur un reportage anglais sur l'arc médiéval: le longbow.

Je précise d'emblée qu'il est intégralement en langue anglaise, et sans sous titres. Mais il faut aussi être honnete, l'accent est clair et le niveau tout a fait abordable.

Pour avoir le début de reportage, il vous suffit d'aller ici.
C'est la premiere vidéo d'une série de 12, format youtube.


Pour ceux que ca rebuterait, je voudrais juste attirer votre attention sur ce qui pourrait interesser le roliste qui someille (ou aps d'ailleurs) en vous, et sur ce qui justifie mon titre racoleur (roll): la pénétration d'une fleche d'un arc de guerre standard dans une armure metalique telle qu'utilisée a Crecy par la cavalerie Française.
Résultat: a plus de 20 metres, les fleches ne traversent pas: soit elles ricochent directement, soit elles "poinçonnent" l'armure mais sans entamer les chairs.
Mais: a moins de 20 metres (soit en tir parfaitement tendu), la fleche pénetre et la pointe se retrouve plantée dans le torse, de quoi non pas tuer directement, mais de quoi condamner le cavalier a mort pour peu qu'il ne reçoive pas de soins dans un délais relativement bref ou si la pointe a été trempée dans du purin/fumier.

La démonstration vidéo a lieu a la toute fin de cette partie et au début de celle ci.

Vous me direz alors "si il faut attendre 20 metres pour tuer, autant aller chercher une arbalete et faire des tirs tendus a 8O metres.
Sauf que les chevaux eux, ne portaient pas d'armure...et qu'un chevalier a terre, c'est pas plus mobile que ca. Il suffit alors d'aller achever ou faire prisonnier les infortunés démontés, pour en tirer une bonne rançon ou s'en débarasser définitivement.

Quant a la cadence de tir comparée entre un arc et une arbalete, c'est ici, vers le milieu de la vidéo.
Il me semble qu'on arrive a 4 fleches pour 1 carreau d'arbalete. Ce qui n'est pas si ignoble pour l'arbalete!

Enfin pour l'équipement de l'archer en campagne, cette vidéo, en toute fin, vous montre l'essentiel du combattant a l'arc: un arc démonté dans une toile huilée, des fleches dans un sac en tissu huilé, un fauchon et quelques provisions légeres pour la route. Simple, léger et mortel.


Et moi qui me disait que j'allais passer au longbow, ca ne fait que conforter mon choix pour les saisons extérieures^

Dernière modification par khazagin (23-11-2008 22:58:56)

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#2 23-11-2008 22:54:39

ChaOdiz-Padre
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Lieu: LYON
Date d'inscription: 02-12-2007
Messages: 3352
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Re: Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

Superbe...

Merci pour ces explications et vidéos. Si de mon coté je suis plus un adepte du corps à corps, j'aime et apprécie ce genre de reportages instructifs.

En tout cas, avant les armes à feu, les archers et surtout ceux utilisant ce genre d'arme devaient être un poids non négligeable au cours des batailles, mais surtout redouté par l'adversaire.

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#3 23-11-2008 23:07:30

khazagin
ChaOtributeur
Lieu: Poitiers
Date d'inscription: 22-12-2007
Messages: 646

Re: Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

C'était pas moche en effet...

Si t'es interessé par le corps a corps, jette un oeil sur ces images: ce sont des reproductions d'épées d'archers, faites parRêves d'acier; spécialisés dans la vente d'armes et accessoires médiévaux.

Epée d'archer du XVeme
http://www.revesdacier.com/boutique/images/archer.jpg



























Un fauchon: moins cher qu'uune "vraie" épée, et ca taille dans la couenne...

http://www.revesdacier.com/boutique/images/P1000402.JPG

Dernière modification par khazagin (23-11-2008 23:08:46)

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#4 23-11-2008 23:30:05

ChaOdiz-Padre
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Lieu: LYON
Date d'inscription: 02-12-2007
Messages: 3352
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Re: Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

Merde, mais c'est sympa tout ça !! Je n'étais plus très sûr de connaitre l'intérêt de l'épée d'archer, mais voici pour ceux qui se poseraient la question :

une épée  d'archer, arme typique du  XVème siècle, la garde inversée  protège d'un  côté la  main et de l'autre  permet d'emprisonner l'arme de son adversaire

Trouvé sur un lien qui devrait te plaire, si tu ne connais pas déjà : http://barbillons.canalblog.com/archive … index.html

smile

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#5 12-05-2009 22:54:26

khazagin
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Lieu: Poitiers
Date d'inscription: 22-12-2007
Messages: 646

Re: Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

Up pour parler de pointes de fleches; suite au lien donné par Franck juste au dessus.
Le blog des Barbillons du Val de Sacre propose une page sur les pointes de fleches.

On y retrouve notamment:
http://storage.canalblog.com/36/72/436680/29681082_p.jpg
Le passadoux, avec sa longue pointe appelé poinçon, avait la particularité de transpercer les cottes de mailles. Pour cela, la pointe était très fine et au moment de l'impact, si la pointe arrivait à se glisser dans la cotte, les mailles éclataient sous la puissance de l'impact. La flèche transperçait le gambison et l'homme, s'il lui restait assez de force pour le faire.  De plus, la pointe n'était qu'emmanchée sur le  fût.  Cela permettait à la pointe de rester figée dans le corps de l'adversaire lorsqu'il essayait d'arracher la flèche et augmentait alors les risques d'infection donc  de  mortalité. Il se passe de même lorsque la flèche se plante sur un obstacle: l'archer adverse prenait la flèche mais celle-ci était sans pointe, donc impossible de la  tirer.

http://storage.canalblog.com/75/94/436680/29681130_p.jpg
Le coupe-jarret, sa lame en forme de hache en fait une pointe à trancher sans pénétration, elle servait à blesser douloureusement les chevaux, semant ainsi le désordre dans les rangs de cavalerie. Cette pointe pouvait être utilisée sur tous les endroits non protégés dans le but de blesser sans tuer.

http://storage.canalblog.com/63/28/436680/29681166_p.jpg
e barbillon, ainsi nommé en raison des barbes sur ses côtés, est la pointe la plus connu du grand public. Elle était surtout utilisée contre les piétons mal équipés. Comme toutes les pointes ou presque, le barbillon était simplement emmanché sur le fût, cela permettait à la pointe de rester plantée  dans la chair et son extraction n'en était que plus difficile. On trouve aussi parfois des barbillons percés pour clouer la pointe sur la flèche.  Son  poids permettait une pénétration profonde et les barbes de très larges blessures. De plus, seul un chirurgien expérimenté pouvait extraire cette  pointe. La pointe, ainsi figée dans la peau, infectait le patient et il avait, avec la médecine médiévale, presque toutes ses chances de mourir de cette infection quelques jours plus tard.


Je vous incite a aller jeter un oeil, c'est tres instructif.

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#6 13-05-2009 20:48:04

ChaOdiz-Padre
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Lieu: LYON
Date d'inscription: 02-12-2007
Messages: 3352
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Re: Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

Cool ! Comme quoi, il y a vraiment eu des inventions impressionnantes et peu connues, d'ailleurs, je ne savais pas que certaines pointes n'étaient qu'emmanchées, c'est futé.

Tout comme le coupe-jarret, je pense quand même que cette pointe étaient assez rare, non ?

La coupe amarre aussi^^ très originale.

http://storage.canalblog.com/30/07/436680/29681123_p.jpg

Une bonne source en tout cas...

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#7 13-05-2009 20:56:27

khazagin
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Lieu: Poitiers
Date d'inscription: 22-12-2007
Messages: 646

Re: Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

Je t'avoue que je ne sais pas.
Juste une réflexion a priori: ca semble nécessiter:
-plus d'acier
-plus de soins (il faut faire un fer de hache et rendre le tranchant rasoir)
-une utilisation tres spécifique
-une utilisation pas forcément plus performante qu'autre chose: une fleche normale dans un cheval ca le rend tout aussi incontrolable qu'une grosse estafilade. Bon ca peut aussi le tuer mais c'est un détail lol

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#8 13-05-2009 21:01:24

ChaOdiz-Padre
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Re: Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

C'est bien ce qu'il me semblait, par contre, ça pouvait peut être avoir la même utilité supposée que le coupe-amarre, à savoir, faire de belle estafilade dans les voiles des navires. Mais bon, c'est qu'une supposition. En tout cas, c'est toujours sympa de voir le genre d'idées et de matos utilisés en des temps plus reculés smile

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#9 20-04-2018 16:16:02

clibin009
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Date d'inscription: 29-11-2017
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Re: Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

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#10 22-05-2018 13:52:57

clibin009
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Re: Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

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Hors ligne

 

#11 04-07-2018 07:42:57

clibin009
Maitre ChaOdiz
Date d'inscription: 29-11-2017
Messages: 510

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Hors ligne

 

#12 31-07-2018 13:57:05

clibin009
Maitre ChaOdiz
Date d'inscription: 29-11-2017
Messages: 510

Re: Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

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#13 03-08-2018 08:24:29

clibin009
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Hors ligne

 

#14 03-08-2018 10:39:33

clibin009
Maitre ChaOdiz
Date d'inscription: 29-11-2017
Messages: 510

Re: Arc médiéval et pénétration d'armure

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#15 28-08-2018 05:49:41

clibin009
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#16 18-09-2018 09:48:18

clibin009
Maitre ChaOdiz
Date d'inscription: 29-11-2017
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#17 12-10-2018 09:07:55

xiaozhengzheng
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